Flaws in PBK Philosophy

[mbbhat]

If Advance Party are ready, why do they wait for the BKs?

It is To go home . Not to make BKs complete. Hence Baba is asking BKs to become complete.

But the meaning in the following sentence conveys different. See the underlined words.

Arjun soul wrote:- ShivBaba (through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) has clearly said umpteen number of times that BKs are better in dharna and seva while PBKs are better in knowledge and remembrance. In the end each group will become complete by imbibing the good qualities of the other group.

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If he creates perfect couple Laksmi and Narayan in the Confluence Age, Lakshmi needs Narayana and Narayan needs Laksmi so that they make a perfect couple, or is it enough to be on your own. It is said it is family path.

Need means coming together and need not mean each gives and takes something to each other.

In a pair of shoes, does it mean that the left leg shoe becomes qualitatively perfect only from the right leg shoe and vice versa?

Is it not the manufacturer's duty to make both of them perfect? When they are applied in use, both of them will be together. Is it not? Very simple logic. So- coming together is only after both attained their perfection.

According to BK philosophy, perfectness automatically happens by effort. The rank number one will become couple with rank number 2 soul. so- there is perfect match in sanskaar itself. [rank No. 1 & 2 are couple, 3&4 are couples, and so on]
- the right thing.

But PBKs believe- PBK group is powerful and BK group is cowardice, which just in last week Arjun expressed it openly.

But,if you see the sentence written by arjun soul - "In the end each group will become complete by imbibing the good qualities of the other group"

They are contradicting, is it not?
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what is perfect couple? I believe in matching of sanskaars. Then only virtues, powers, and colour, beauty of body also can match.

Now, if PBKs believe that BK group is cowardice, then karma philosophy itself is violated.

Because it is then as if the effort of one (PBK group) can give fruit to other (BK group)!

If so- then once again question arises- if one's effort can give fruit to other, why not to all?

[mbbhat]

Even Avyakt BapDada says Advance Party are ready and are wating for you.

So- do you believe the Advance Party (of PBKs) is really ready?

According to my knowledge- There should be 2.25 lakh souls from pbk group. Have they reached till there?

If not, then does not that imply the Advance Party BapDada referring is not to AIVV souls, it is for others?

[arjun]

If you think, you know very well about essence of shastras, you may give relation from gyaanmarg to Bhaktimarg (and vice versa) of the following. If you are willing, I can list even more questions.

All 16 questions have been answered in PBKs Section by ShivBaba. Search, if you want answers.

[fluffy bunny]

Think whatever you wish. But please allow us to do something positive. And instead of wasting your time debating with us, use your energy and wealth of knowledge in doing BK service. That will earn you more punya than just arguing with PBKs.

I am not following this discussion closely (and from a BK point of view, I don't see the relevance of the Hindu references) but it seems as though mbbhat's strategy is akin to throwing mud pie, and then running away afterwards. By that I mean putting together a few disconnected arguments and then when it is questions refusing to answer or claiming any questioning is a "personal comment" and ignoring it.

He'll probably say this is a "personal comment, so he won't have to answer it either.


Perhaps I missed this stage in the discussion but I wish you guys could stop for a minute and have a real discussion about real things, just person to person about life, and I'd like to know more about mbbhat's experience of the BKWSU. I'd like to know he is really a 7 days a week, 365 days a year Maryadas following BK who walks his own talk because there are a lot of "theoretical BKs" who don't and it affects their stage.


Do you do Amrit Vela every day, mb, or has the BKWSU changed the rules and now BKs don't have to? In the West some BKs claim things have become a bit more slack in that area.

Why don't you ask people why they became PBKs, what attracts them to the ideas of the PBKs and what they get out of? If nothing else, it would help you understand where better to aim your criticisms.

Thanks.

[mbbhat]

Why don't you ask people why they became PBKs, what attracts them to the ideas of the PBKs and what they get out of? If nothing else, it would help you understand where better to aim your criticisms.

Did you ask have got reply and got at least some satisfaction including truth??

I have been targeted by PBKs three times (of course, it may be their service, it is OK). In the first time, they targetted directly- asking questions- who is mukhvamshavali (MV) and kukhvamshavali (KV)?

When I replied casually- "BKs are MV and lowkik braahimns are KV and also explained it", they started giving their explanation and i immediately came to know they were Shankar Party people. i then said I do not want further discussion. But then did not leave me. for half an hour, there was debating orally.

Do you think- i need to find reasons for what attracts them? why?

I am least bothered even if BKs become PBKs or ex BKs, or whatever it is. Because Murli points say- those who are in gyaan for even 30 - 40 years will also leave.

Are these aims of my life?

You suppport PBKs becuase you do not have any other options. In no way you can go deeper or it is PBKs only who can add to your criticisms on BKWSU. Fine, you may go. All the best.
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I do not like to mix the things. If you are interested in knowledge, then do the pure knowledge discussion. Else- if you think of something that makes one emotional, attractional, etc then it is up to you. I am not interested in them.

Fortunately- I got faith just by only knowledge and not by any Dadi, Didi, etc . I did not know up to 2 months, that it is through brahma Baba shiv is giving knowledge. I was just very happy to know that- i am a soul point of light and ShivBaba is also point of light and the times cycle of 84 births.

It did not touch/strike my intellect that- Arey- how can ShivBaba give knowledge without a Chariot.
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Everyone has his own role in drama. so- that is your role, this is my role. that is the final truth.

Actually- I was never interested in such debates. But since I was targetted three times, then when I found this forum accidentally, then thought of putting some materials here. And, I m not criticizing. I am just replying to them sometimes in their own words. That is all.

But unfortunately- you think, it is me who criticize them. So- when your understanding level itself is low, how can you realize truth even if it explained to you in black and white?

You are interested in how much one does Yoga, whether he wakes up amrutvela, etc. So- it is more evident that- you are not in search of truth. You in search of what you desire and expect. For that you are ready to join with hands in those who you do not even believe!

You say- you are for right and accurate criticisms, but even do wrong criticisms.

Carry on. Let your good wishes be fulfilled.

[sita]

It is To go home . Not to make BKs complete. Hence Baba is asking BKs to become complete.

But we have to become complete before going home.

Need means coming together and need not mean each gives and takes something to each other.

But there is give and take. It is said that there is give and take of happiness only between deities, there is pure love.

coming together is only after both attained their perfection.

Yes, but again, the matter is how one attains perfection. Is it through sitting alone or through coming in contact with others? Will one become complete first or two or many? What if ShivBaba is everpure on his own, what is the benefit if he sits like this on his own. In coming in contact with him others become pure. So one becomes pure, then in coming in contact with him others become.

So- do you believe the Advance Party (of PBKs) is really ready?

According to my knowledge- There should be 2.25 lakh souls from PBK group. Have they reached till there?

If not, then does not that imply the Advance Party BapDada referring is not to AIVV souls, it is for others?

I think the term Advance Party has come when Mama has left the body, or maybe earlier, i don't know, but when BK started to leave their bodies and the question was there, what is to happen with them, so the answer was that they have gone in advance. They are doing service.

For the BKs Advance Party refers to those souls having left their bodies. Are they ready? Because is there some special qualification and attainment when leaving the body? The idea is even they are making effort, entering other bodies. I cannot say how far who is ready, maybe some are ready. The idea is first few will be ready, then more etc.

You say how far Advance Party applies to AIVV, i think the name applies more than the Bk definition, because it is connected with some advance, deeper knowledge as opposed to basic knowledge and this advanced knowledge is taught in practical and its results can be seen, checked, cross referenced and verified. Otherwise to accept that if one leaves the body this qualifies him to be in the Advance Party is no better.

It was said that Advance Party are preparing the ground. Or was it that BKs are preparing the ground, please, correct me.

In some Avyakt Vanis after the demise of Dadi Prakashmani, it is mentioned she had understood something after leaving the body. For her it is said she has taken birth. So if she is ready, she must be complete baby.

I can say Adyakt BapDada says Advance Party is ready for to make children make effort, but i don't know. Souls that have left their bodies are of various types.

[mbbhat]

Dear sita soul,

Thank you for being open in what you are writing.

You have not understood what is asked or i failed to make you understand you.

My question here was to PBKs. but it seems that you are not sure of pbk philosophy. It is OK. fine.

[mbbhat]

Flaw No. 34:- Deadly contradiction of Murli points:-

PBKs say- Kumarka Dadi (Dadi Prakashmani) is Maya, and under her leadership, the violation of srimath started to occur, etc, etc. But Murli point says Kumarka will definitely win.

SM 24-7-79(2):- Numberwaar pass hote hain. Koyi fail bhi hote hain. RAMCHANDR KO FAIL KAHENGE. KYONKI Maya PAR JEETH NAHIN PAHAN SAKEY. Tumhaari bhi yuddh chal rahi hai. TUM DEKH RAHE HO, JIS RATH PAR BAAP VIRAAJMAAN HAIN, VAH TOH JEETH HEE LENGE. JAISE KUMAARKAA HAI,FALANI HAI, ZAROOR JEETH PAAVENGI. -40

= Passing will be numberwise. (But) some will get failed. Ram chandr is called/announced as failed. Because he could not conquer Maya. Even your fight/war is going on. You are seeing. The Chariot on which Father is stting, will definitely win. Like Kumarka, (and the few) others will definitely win.

Now- PBKs may say even this has some unlimited meaning and Kumarka here does not refer to Dadi Kumarka ( Prakashmani ) of BKWSU.

And our fluffy bunny soul may say- "I believe PBKs are more logical and better in discussion of knowledge than BKs".

[fluffy bunny]

And our fluffy bunny soul may say- "I believe PBKs are more logical and better in discussion of knowledge than BKs".

In general, yes, but I never said in every case. This is a very cheap attack and false logic. I was comparing the PBK approach, which was to accept the whole of the original teachings and try and make metaphorical sense of them; against the BK approach, which is to change, erase or hide anything which they do not understand or is contradictory.

The BK approach ... and yours ... is neither moral, nor ethical.

The PBKs start with the premise of what BKs believe ... "These are God's words and so they must have some significant meaning, we must try and understand what their mystery is". The BKs think ... "we don't understand this and it looks bad so we will just erase it or change it, pretend it was never said and not tell our followers".

Therefore, the PBK are more logical (within the limits of Gyan), moral and ethical AND have a greater love and appreciation of the knowledge than the BKs, who are more concerned with public image and their status.

Please do not misrespresent me.

Did you ask have got reply and got at least some satisfaction including truth??

Please, I asked you. Don't ask me a question back so as not to reply.

I have been targeted by PBKs three times (of course, it may be their service, it is OK). In the first time, they targetted directly- asking questions- who is mukhvamshavali (MV) and kukhvamshavali (KV)?

Where was this? Delhi ... Mount Abu.

Yes, personally, I find those kind of dogmatic attacks on BKism a little blunt and often counter-productive and so I understand your position ... but such challenges are traditional within Hinduism.

It is a bit like some elements of panditry ... they like to "challenge" people philosophically. The BKs used to do so in the early days as well. Lekhraj Kirpalani used to encourage them to "challenged the Vatican" and claim the "Christians had no answer!!!". In fact, "the Christians" just thought it was a crazy letter or a crazy person and so ignore it. The letters in the early days *were* crazy.

It strikes me, some PBK are unsubtle and dogmatic ... but that unsubtle and dogmatic PBKs are required for the spiritual progress of unsubtle and dogmatic BKs. Let them knock their stone heads together and grind down their rough edges.

But not all PBKs are.

I also think some elements of the BKWSU portray Virendra Dev Dixit in a false, ignorant, ugly manner which reflects their own false, ignorant, ugly nature.

Do you think- i need to find reasons for what attracts them? why?

To help see yourself, your own religion and the leaders of your religion. Think of it as market research. Or even if you want to break the PBKs, you need to understand why makes them tick.

Like it or not, we are all part of the same family ... the human family ... we all live on the same planet ... you even operate in the same field. It is better to find some common ground and speak to people if they are normal.

What have the BKWSU leadership told you about the PBKs that made you instantly think "these are Shankar Party People"?

You suppport PBKs becuase you do not have any other options.

Like I say, I am not pro- or anti- anyone. I look for and accept the truth from all sides. It is just the BKWSU has done a lot more bad than Virendra Dev Dixit and the PBKs who I see mostly, at present, as victims of abuse.

If it is proven that the BKWSU is continuing to be abusive, we have to do something to stop that abuse ... and "having more Yoga" is not good enough.

[mbbhat]

The BK approach ... and yours ... is neither moral, nor ethical.

Then what can you understand from me? why you have been asking from me ?

we must try and understand what their mystery is".

You have no hesitation to speak lies. You know very well that PBKs believe it as god's words, but you do not believe so . Then whatever may be the mystery, when you support them , it means you are wrong or wish to be with them like politicians make friendship for selfish things.

Therefore, the PBK are more logical (within the limits of Gyan),

Actually spiritual knowledge is for unlimited. You like to be in limited. your first assumption itself is wrong. You wish to know just half knowledge. Then it will be dangerous. so- keep on proving yourself that- your support to PBKs is right.

And I have given proof with supports of Murli points how the typing mistakes in Murlis which could not have been recognized by their god in their Chariot. and also have given sevaral points, where they have been highly mis interpreted. Still if you feel they are more logical, it becomes more clear how logical you are and in what truth you are interested.

Please do not misrespresent me.
Please, I asked you. Don't ask me a question back so as not to reply.

When you ask one thousand questions, cannot I ask at least hundred question? That too when you claim that- I am for truth, ... [Is this not impartial or double standards ?]

And mis representing you?! I have never mis represented anyone anywhere. It is surprising that- you can criticize anyone according to your wishes, but when equally sharp replies come from the other side, you can neither accept the truth nor tolerate [double standards!]

To help see yourself, your own religion and the leaders of your religion. Think of it as market research. Or even if you want to break the PBKs, you need to understand why makes them tick.

Aim is to purify self and give Godly message. Murli says- see Father and follow Father. And you are giving me some guidance to see brothers?! It is foolish to me.

And interesting thing is- are you mediator between me and PBKs to give such suggestions?

You are assuming things (the one who is interested in just truth!) that I have intention to break way PBKs! But, I have no such intention.

Usually BKs try to ignore PBKs when they meet BKs. Even i also had done the same twice. But, when it happened third time, i had some debates with them. And when lots of things are being put on internet here, i thought to put my views here so that let them do not feel that BKs do not have replies to their questions.

[mbbhat]

What have the BKWSU leadership told you about the PBKs that made you instantly think "these are Shankar Party People"?

Still you need replies from unethical and immoral person like me! You do not have hesitation to ask and ask (just to gather information) from such people whom you feel as one of the worst! What a selfishness attitude from the so called truth seekers!

[I think- Since VD calls himself as Shankar, BKs have kept name as Shankar Party to PBKs].
I was just warned from BKWSU that there are some who call them as Shankar and use the same Murlis and teach according to them. This was in between 1985 to 1990. Nothing more they said to me.

Rest all were accidentals. PBKs will come in disguise and ask something. ...blah, blah, blah

If it is proven that the BKWSU is continuing to be abusive, we have to do something to stop that abuse ... and "having more Yoga" is not good enough.

Did I say, "You should not do?" Is this not foolish! Go ahead with full power and faith. Let all your good wishes be fulfilled.

There is also benefit because it may teach such third class BKs something. So- nothing to worry from external things in Confluence Age.

[fluffy bunny]

A truth seeker, like a detective, will look for information from all and any source.

Indeed, criminals are the best source of information about crimes and how the crime world works!

As usual you disappoint and attack me with a partial and twisted answer ... is it not possible for you to have a normal, honest discussion between equals? You are not the BK leadership. You are not to blame.


They BKs say everything has its beginning in the Confluence Age ... everything is a reflection of this time, isn't it?

I am confidence and happy to because if by tiny chance Brahma Kumarism is true, I will also have earned a fortune for my efforts and spend a very interesting and rewarding Cycle being a pain in the ass to all the corrupt BK souls right through the Copper and Iron Age.

If my very last birth (by BK theory) was anything to go by, I had a very good and privileged Kalpa and so I cannot complain at all.

[mbbhat]

I am confidence and happy

Really good. You are then a true braahmin.

True braahmin means one who is most happy.

[fluffy bunny]

True braahmin means one who is most happy.

I thought a brahmin was one who had knowledge and experience of the Brahm, or at the very least sought the highest knowledge, the indisputable truth of brahmavidya.

I am not happy to accept such a title ... and, of course, if one was to apply Gyan it means nothing because now we know the Brahma Kumaris teach us all the lokik brahmins and sanyasins merely had partial knowledge, never gained moksha, and were in decline from when they first born. It is not praise at all.

[mbbhat]

SM 3-6-79(1):- Devtaayein bahut thoda khate hain, kyonki khushi hai na. Isliye kaha jata hai khushi jaise khurak nahin. Tum bachchon ko athaah khushi honi chahiye. Braahman ban_ne may badi khushi hai. BRAAHMAN BANTE HEE TAB HAI JAB UNKO KHUSHI MILTI HAI. Devataavon ko khushi hai na. Kyonki unhon ke paas dhan, mahal, aadi sabkuch hain to unhon ke liye khushi kaaphi hai. Khushi may khanaa bhi bahut thoda. Sookshm khavega. Yah bhi ek kaaydaa hai- Jasti khanevaale ko jasti neend avegi.

=...... One becomes braahmin only when he gets happiness......