MBBhat on the term Hindu

[fluffy bunny]

Many scriptures are or include historical records, some which over time have grown into myths and legends. This is as true of the vedas as it is of the Bible.

Therefore it is possible possible to pick out references to places and events, lost cities, battlefield, roads and then look for other mention from other sources or evidence for them.

It then becomes a process of deductive reasons, supporting by scientific results, and now tools such satellites can scan not only for geographical sites which the eye on the ground cannot find but even what lies underneath the ground. We have numerous types of carbon and other dating which can be cross referenced to a point of accuracy. Computers can compile, compare, model and process large quantities of information that would take humans months to do or find ... and so on. Historians have a vast array of highly accurate devices and process and information to use now. Genes can be traced from 1,000s of year old material. Library of information are held and accessible all over the world. Languages are recorded and decoded ... it is like most scientific of detective work.

What was once a far off mystery, can now be zoomed right into at a microscopic level, broken down, seen through, taken apart, and reconstructed to a very high degree of accuracy. Sometimes 100% accuracy.

The study of Mohenjo-daro and the Harappan civilization, which developed around 3,000 BC (or at the beginning of the BKs Golden Age), is one such example. According to the BKs, it would have had to exist from, say, 450 BC (beginning of Copper Age) and immediately decline ... but the historical record contradicts this.

For example, we know that they ate meat from both wild and domesticated animals and skeletons with sword-cuts have been found.

Therefore you have written records, or recorded evidence and artefacts, from India, China, Mesopotamia and Egypt going back 3,000, 5,000 even 7,000 years. Where did these civilisations exists while the BKs were having their Golden and Silver Age?

BTW, an even older city or civilisation has recently been found.

[mbbhat]

Therefore you have written records, or recorded evidence and artefacts, from India, China, Mesopotamia and Egypt going back 3,000, 5,000 even 7,000 years. Where did these civilisations exists while the BKs were having their Golden and Silver Age?

The age cannot be verified. Even carbon dating, nitrogen dating, is not fully accurate.

A skeleton found near at amazon river was tested for its age and was estimated as 5 lakh year old. The same skeleton was re tested after 5 years and then the value came as 50 thousand years old. after 5 years, the third test came as 5 thousand years old.

This is given in the literature with reference in the literature- I forgot the title- but the thick book - mostly world drama- part II- written by Jagadish Bhaiji. And, in that another (with reference is given) such incident is given. If you are interested, you may check and verify the reference given there.
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And it is well known fact that- Darwin's theory is proved wrong later.

Once, scientists said- there is water/greenary in Mars. then they said No. now something again is going on.

Even medical science- It was said there is cholestrol in coconut- and after few years, nothing about it.
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what is the proof that the half life period of Carbon 14 remains constant ? Scientists are using the present value in calculations. but what if its half life period had been something different previously? Please note that Scientific research is based on lots of assumptions.

It was believed that nothing can move beyond speed of light. That is the highest limit. But, now they say- lights beyond that are possible.

All these values/constants- speed of light and other constants have been used in their calculations during estimation. so- what is the reliability?

So- nothing can be verified scientifically.
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More interesting-

Previously scientists had totally ignored existence of soul. But now, they agree.

Previously they had said- mind is part of brain. Now, they agree mind is not part of brain and say "brain houses the mind".
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Indian scientist J. C Bose (I think it was during British rule) had once did experiment and proved that plants have life and feeling. But later it was disproved!

So- even intellectually, biologically- capacity of science is very low. It can just touch only a few things for verification purpose- for example- how much positive level a person's thought is,...etc. and give some relief for temporary period and from some illness.

Even material truth- Its reach is for few hundred years only. And even it is changing. And how can they be reliable for thousands of years?
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More interesting- there was a debate/doubt just few years back- whether NASA lied about their landing on moon?!

A man is just a man and science is invention of man. He is not only limited but also can lie to attain selfish motives!

There had been several protests in some countries (I think, in England itself this had happened) by learned educated people/citizens of the same country against medical scientists in forcing them to take some medicines. The scientists were about to make it legally compulsory drug to be taken by infants. ....I had read this a news in some Naturopathy book. So- whether they are good to health or not, what is the effect of side effects of them?

After few years, some medicines get banned!
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[mbbhat]

How well scientists can calculate the side effects of any new invention? :- They fail in many things. Eg:- The cell/mobile phone - when it was questioned how harm it is to health, no real information was given in advance. But later, now, i think- they say- Yes, it is really harmful to considerable extent.

How did they arrive to the conclusion? they can study and get the details. So- when they did experiment, and study, they found it. But, who is there to check whether such and such thing had really existed some one thousand , 5000, 7000 yrs before?

They do not know how the universe is created. They are still doing research. How much to believe them is such cases? (prediction about past)
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A funny thing of great scientists is-

an Indian scientist had said- speed faster than light is achievable long before. but those scientists had called him as mad, fool at that time.

Even Einstein and many good scientists had some such experiences.

But the sad thing is- I think- it is Einstein who had said speed of light is the highest and that is going to be disproved.

Anything.....blah blah blah.

First of all, scientists neither know beginning, nor the end of the universe. they are caught in the middle! How much can they know?

BK philosophy says it is cycle. So- no need to search for the beginning or bother about the end.

Einstein also had remarked time is cyclic. Now, if you believe in this, what do you understand by this? Or what the other great scientists have understood by this?

You may go on churning and churning.

[fluffy bunny]

In March, a repeat experiment found that the neutrinos did not exceed light speed.

Prof Antonio Ereditato oversaw results that appeared to challenge Einstein's theory that nothing could travel faster than the speed of light resigned.

This is given in the literature with reference in the literature ... written by Jagadish Bhaiji.

Ah ... "if Jagdish Chander wrote it, it must be true!" Written with all the confidence of a pre-science, Medieval fundamentalist.

As far as the evidence proves, Jagdish Chander is the number one suspect for spreading false beliefs in the Yugya. Especially about 1936, the early history and so on. Let's be honest, Chander was charming but clueless about science and his job was as a propaganda master.

Look at your strategy here ... you attempt to spread uncertainty and doubt by using a handful of examples whilst not understanding at all how science, or historical research works at all. In essence, you are programmed to not to think, not to question and believe that only BKs are enlightened, and all others are ignorant. Of course science happens through dialogue ... a theory ... experimentation ... challenge ... proof. That is the way it works and it keeps getting better and more accurate. Do you want us to go back to the Dark Ages of Karachi?

As far as dating goes, they don't just use one method these days. They use a number and cross-references them to remove any possible anomalies (errors).

Willard Libby was awarded the Nobel Prize for his work demonstrating the accuracy of radiocarbon dating by accurately estimating the age of wood from a series of samples for which the age was known, including an ancient Egyptian royal barge from 1850 BC (the end of the Golden Age, according to the BKs).

If you do not trust radio-carbon dating, what is the BKWSU's expert opinion on Uranium-lead dating, Samarium-neodymium dating, Potassium-argon dating, Rubidium-strontium dating, Uranium-thorium dating, Fission track dating, Chlorine-36 dating or all the others other methods? It has no clue ... no knowledge.

The way dating works, is one takes something or some event one *knows* the date, and then works backwards according to other records and reports. For example, there are excellent records of the Royal lineages and battles. In another report mentions such and such a King or battle, and something else happening is reported as happening around the same time, then it can be cross referenced accurately. It's simple detective work.

Equally, I can list for you all the far more amazing things science has done. They just landed a spaceship on Mars, 354 million miles away. Are you suggesting it can do nothing?

BTW, how are the Advance Party going to bring the spaceship from Mars so it won't be there for the next Kalpa?

[mbbhat]

Ah ... "if Jagdish Chander wrote it, it must be true!" Written with all the confidence of a pre-science, Medieval fundamentalist.

there is reference given. you may verify it. and it is just one tip of the iceberg. the other points also I have mentioned.

BTW, how are the Advance Party going to bring the spaceship from Mars so it won't be there for the next Kalpa?

Very simple- It will get destroyed there itself! What is the necessity to bring it back? This shows how low level your questions or understanding are!

By change in atomic structure, even gold can become stone or vice versa. Water can become mud.

All the questions you put or have put are very very silly and simple to me. Hence i had not replied to you.

Because Mass and energy are inter changeable
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I will tell you the most important/difficult thing for me:- Everyday, lot of energy that is coming to earth from sun gets formed as dust finally on surface of earth. So- mass of earth is increasing and sun is decreasing. Finally at the end of Kalpa this should be restored.

So how the lost mass is restored, this is the greatest issue. But, even this can be solved. There are many stars. One star can fall on sun and get attached there. Again simple!

How then, the mass of earth is restored? -By some volcanic or great heat during the destruction, extra mass can be removed from earth in form of water vapour.
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[mbbhat]

But then one question arise- how to restore the star which has fallen on sun?

Of course, from other plenty of stars/objects, a piece can come out and for the star.
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That is why Baba says- do not worry about these things. they will happen at their own time. You put effort.

[fluffy bunny]

BTW, how are the Advance Party going to bring the spaceship from Mars so it won't be there for the next Kalpa?

Very simple- It will get destroyed there itself! What is the necessity to bring it back? This shows how low level your questions or understanding are!

There has been nothing in the Murlis or Knowledge to suggest the entire universe is going to be destroyed ... which is what you are inferring.

If it does, which I agree would be the only logical possibility, there is nothing in the Murlis or Knowledge to suggest how the entire universe, a high tech heaven on earth will be instantly recreated and human life carry on. In fact, the idea contradicts what the BKs have been teaching for decades.

Please correct me if I am wrong and they have updated the Knowledge now ... how does Destruction reach out into outer space?

there is reference given. you may verify it. and it is just one tip of the iceberg. the other points also I have mentioned.

Your level of argument boils down to finding one or two anomalies or errors and using them to claim the entire work of science is therefore wrong.

It is as if I found a single grammatical or spelling error in one of the BKWSU's literature, and used it as the reason why BKism is false.

Of course, you have also said similar about the Murlis on wwww.brahmakumaris.info. You have claimed there is some kind of grammatical or spelling error in one ... without qualifying what ... and so therefore condemn the entire work. You appear to be trying to do the same as regards PBKism. It appears to be your favorite yukti.

Such arguments about science might work with uneducated individuals, however, my advice to you would be save yourself the embarrassment of try them in a discussion with real scientists.

If you genuinely want to learn I am happy to try and explain to you, but I don't think you do. You are obviously here to just try and ******* in the water so no one wants to drink it and have no interest in real service, even of your BK family. Even I, as one of the worst critics of the BKWSU have done more service of the family than you.

So what level does that put you at?

[mbbhat]

There has been nothing in the Murlis or Knowledge to suggest the entire universe is going to be destroyed ... which is what you are inferring.

By destruction, i meant that the spaceship would get burnt or something change and will becomes part of earth/soil of that planet.

So what level does that put you at?

You or anyone can laugh or smile. I just mentioned some possibilities so that an ordinary mind can understand. My aim here is not to satisfy the scientists, but ordinary people. And not even that. I just have something as some points to satisfy myself. That is enough for me. and i do not believe that it is going to happen as i have said here. It can be anything. i am least bothered about that physical process.

But, when even great faults or limitations have been found in science, you who believe in them (as if 100%) correct, may think where is your level.
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I have heard this:- When the computer was invented for the first time, the scientists had thought - just 7 to 8 computers would be enough for the whole world. I do not know to whether this is true. If it is true, then such embarrassment is there for everyone in this world. so- this was the level of those scientists there.

Murli says- gaali toh khaanaa padegaa= You will have to eat/tolerate criticisms.

[mbbhat]

Equally, I can list for you all the far more amazing things science has done. They just landed a spaceship on Mars, 354 million miles away. Are you suggesting it can do nothing?

I had never said so or meant so. I said was- all the predictions what science does need not be right. I had mentioned it there itself. The accuracy of its predictions may be limited/valid up to few hundred years. this is what i feel and also have given the reasons Else in other things it has done miracles.

We believe it is the science things only that come to Satyug. We are happy with science and love it. Even baba admires science in Murli.

Of course, you have also said similar about the Murlis on wwww.brahmakumaris.info. You have claimed there is some kind of grammatical or spelling error in one ... without qualifying what ... and so therefore condemn the entire work. You appear to be trying to do the same as regards PBKism. It appears to be your favorite yukti.

I had not condemned anything there. I had just mentioned the mistake there (and it was a great mistake. Because the meaning became something different!). But it was you who got upset and commented using unnecessary words there. You may read those words.

i do not know what is happening to you. you assume things as you like and keep on doing personal comments. It is up to you.

[fluffy bunny]

By destruction, i meant that the spaceship would get burnt or something change and will becomes part of earth/soil of that planet.

Sure ... but apply logic. The metal of that spaceship has to return to earth and become ore deep within the planet so it can be dug up, made into a rocket and then fired back to Mars again next Kalpa. In an "eternity of Kalpas", all of the metal in earth would end up on Mars.

My aim here is not to satisfy the scientists, but ordinary people.

The yukti the BKWSU uses is to try to seed fear, uncertainty and doubt in naive, uneducated people about anything that might challenge their control over them. One yukti the BKWSU tries to use is discrediting science and scientists. This goes right back to the very beginning of the Yugya and Lekhraj Kirpalani critcising the pomp of the "Science Proud Yadava/Christians". Lekhraj Kirpalani, like many Indians of his generation, obviously had an inferiority complex towards Western ability to create technology.

The BKWSU's respect and understanding of science and scientific process (e.g. deductive reasoning) is zero. A road sweeper would have a better and more honest understanding of it.

You don't even know enough to be able to judge what is a "great fault" or a "limitation".

The problem is the purpose to which you wish to put your understand to. The BKWSU teaches you to try and seed fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to capture simple souls with the BK's simple answer ... its mental plugs.

• "Don't think, don't question, don't work, don't study ... just remember Baba and give us your money and labor and everything will be given to you for free"

I can explain well enough to help you understand. A real scientist would tear the BKWSU apart. But neither you nor the BKWSU have any desire to really understand, it only picks up on ideas to use for yuktis to trap people.

I have heard this:- When the computer was invented for the first time, the scientists had thought - just 7 to 8 computers would be enough for the whole world. I do not know to whether this is true.

It is a true quote (actually Watson said 5) but he wasn't a scientist, he was an accountant/businessman, and you have no idea what he was talking about.

This is a good example of where your logic fails.

Watson was the chairman of IBM. IBM wanted to sell large mainframe computers with terminals. They did not want to sell personal computers, so he made a marketing statement. It was Jobs, then gates and others who started the Personal Computer (PC) revolution. It was two entirely different approaches to computing; centralized versus distributed.

The world *could* run off five computers *if* they were big enough ... indeed, the world is moving back towards the idea of centralized computing using the Cloud theory.

But you are doing what the American Christian evangelists are doing. You take a single simply anomaly, which has often been resolved later ... and try and use to to disprove the whole of science or the status of scientists putting BK spirituals and spirit being above them in understanding.

[fluffy bunny]

Scientific understand is cumulative, it keeps being added upon. The apparent "errors" or anomalises are studied, then understood and corrections are made. It's like tuning a violin.

You take a piece of wood and a dead cat, and say that "proves" music does not exit and instrument makers are frauds.

All you're really doing is proving the BKWSU's ignorance of such matters and that it dulls the minds of its adherents.

I'll give you an example. Some living water snails were found and when they were dated by an enthusiast, they were found to be 26,000 years old (they were not, they were a few months old and alive).

Christian fundamentalists jumped on this and said ... "this proves scientist are wrong and God and the Bible are right".

No, it did not.

The evidence of the snails was "anomalous" ... a strangely out of place result. Carbon dating is *highly* accurate upto about 50,000 years. So real scientists took the case and examined it. They found that the shells of the snails were made from much old material and this was why the individual got that result. They published their results and so now other scientist know what to be careful for. Now when samples come out of water, they know how they need to be filters to get an accurate result.

Unfortunately, the ignorant fundamentalists and ordinary people are not interested in this because their interest, like the BKWSU, is to discredit scientists to promote their unscientific nonsense and so they never mention it.

Same too of Jagdish Chander.

Jagdish had no peers to review his studies. All the mothers and sisters were dumb. To them, Jagdish was a miracle they worshipped and adore. They allowed him to publish any old nonsense ... and used his enthusiasm to make false stories about the Yugya. They lead, manipulated and used him.

In short, they made an intelligent man crazy ... but happy to be crazy because he got in life what part of him must have wanted.

[mbbhat]

Sure ... but apply logic. The metal of that spaceship has to return to earth and become ore deep within the planet so it can be dug up, made into a rocket and then fired back to Mars again next Kalpa. In an "eternity of Kalpas", all of the metal in earth would end up on Mars.

Sorry. you did not understand at all. I said the metal ship at Mars can get destroyed there itself. what is the need to return to earth. You cannot understand such simple things. Then you may say what food we have eaten and had come out as stool from large intestine should return back through the same place and come out from mouth. sorry to say this- but to make you understand , what can be done?
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you may try to explain each and everything using your science.

[fluffy bunny]

Mbbhat ... you're doing it again.

It's funny to see how despite us having good discussion based on objective facts, the points just don't seem to stick in your intellect. From: Revealing the God of the Gita.

mbbhat, your logic here, must of which is borrowed from the BKWSU, was weak foundations. The simple answer is, "Hinduism is not one religion". It is many religions.

There are so many faults here that I find them too exhausting to have to revise again without ... could you please go and read some real books on the subject?

Hinduism is not one religion. Until the British came along, it was a term used in a purely geographic sense.

"Hindustan" has many scriptures because it has many religions and philosophical schools and an ancient history ... so too other religions have more than one book or scripture, e.g. Judaism has the Torah and the Talmud, Christianity has the Old and New Testaments (which are many scriptures in one) and the Apocrypha etc.
Hindus do know their religion.
The BK view of history is obviously historically incorrect.
England has also sheltered many religions, the USA and other Western nation is just as diverse. Hindus have also persecuted other religions and one can hardly say it "Welcomed" Islam!!! And so on ...

The yukti here that the BKs attempt to use is to seed doubt and confusion in fairly simple minds so that they can capture them with their simplistic logic ... their "20 words or less" truth. There is an answer to each of your statements. Books have been written explaining the history and documenting the issues ... do you care to know?

No, I doubt you do. It's just a yukti of BKism used to try and destroy the psychological core of Hindus so they can capture them.

There are enough difference between BK philosophy and Hindu scriptures to say them as completely new. It is not slight shift. [at the same time, there should be common things, because original hinduism (deitism) is the one that is being established by god ]

Every religion has just one scripture, but hinduism has many.

Every religion knows its creator. but, hinduism does not know.

Every religion depends on its scripture for its survival as soon as it gets established. But, deity religion did not need any scripture in heaven.

Every person knows his religion to a great extent. But, why not Hindus?


Why even foreign people believe that the Gita is not part of Mahabharat war, it is later added to it? Why Gita is translated to many languages than any other scripture and many have written their views on it?

Why India is the only country which has so diversity, which has given shelter to all religions?

Why ancient culture of India is so great - admired by many? and why now it is very degraded?

Why in Hinduism, there are many gods, many concepts?

Why Hindus follow their scripture least than any other people in this world?

Why the word bhagavaanuvaach (words of God) is present only in Gita and not in any other scripture?
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A few more points can be put.

More details are already put in the respective topic. One can pick from there
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And- if we cannot convince you- it can be due to -

a) Our stage has not reached to the required level or

b)No need to convince you, because the target is the whole world, not individual.

c)Or it is not in your role in drama to accept it now.
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And - i also feel it will be only in the end. Like the concept of destruction was said ahead , but did not occur at that time. But, now everyone knows that BKWSU is an institution that believes that destruction is near by.

So- in future, when destruction happens with full force, no one can stop people approaching BKWSU. [So- even though there are series of failed destruction, the platform is being prepared in incognito way- this may be a secret in drama]

Similarly, people are coming to know that BKWSU believes God of Gita is shiv and not Krishn. [This service has gained an acceleration in BKWSU now. Recently in platinum jubilee celebration, this issue was put. ]This revelation will happen only in the end, but, the present efforts or service will be like nourishing the same whose fruit will bear at the end.

So- BKs should put effort without expecting the immediate fruit, but with more faith in future than the present.

Murli points-

1)Service bhi anaasakt hokar karnaa hai = even the service should be done with dis interest.

2)vishw kalyaan huyi padi hai, isko kahaa jaataa hai nishchay buddhi vijayanti = The world service is already over. this is called as victory through faithful intellect.

[mbbhat]

Sorry, i did not read your writings , because i am complete, so no need, and I fully respect what you have written, because you are a complete soul.

[fluffy bunny]

You not complete. I am not complete ... no one here is. That is not Gyan. You're just sticking your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes like a child who does not want to listen.

Let's discuss your theories rationally.