The sickness that is "intoxication"

[zhuk]

Something I've been reading from a book 'Hardcore Zen' by Brad Warner

'If you do meditation long enough, this kind of thing can happen. Its a kind of sickness.

Any kind of enlightenment that requires some mystical state is worse than useless. It just reinforces the belief that your "self" has some kind of objective reality. Who's going to have this exalted state of "heightenend consciousness"? Who's going to float in the formless state of "no up, no down, no over and no there"? Who's going to become enlightened? Why its "you" of course! - your self-important self-existent selfish self!

This kind of thing is a common problem among meditation & zazen practioners. They have these really cool experiences, or really cutting insights, and then they latch onto them forever, like a pitbull onto a postman's ass - effectively missing out on the rest of their lives.

It's a game the ego plays: if it cannot keep you believing in it through all the usual methods, it tosses you something that feels just like what you always imagined enlightenment ought to feel like. :!:

Once you start believing in that stuff your ego's got you right where it wants you.

You'll never be able to look at your day-to-day life honestly again.'

Makes more sense to me than anything the BKs ever said ... some gut instinct deep inside me knew that something was deeply, deeply wrong with their dogma. (The BKs would call that a body-conscious sanskar, naturally lol) It just took me a while to realise I was crushing my own logical faculties in order to attempt to 'force' belief. Which never works.

So why believe in non-reality? (i.e. ALL DOGMA). Another pertinent quote:

'I could easily have gone down the same road: Had Nishijima [the writer's Zen teacher] confirmed my experience of Oneness With God as "real enlightenment" I would have been sucked right in. I could have stayed that way, in a blissed-out daze, for years, I am sure; possibly forever.

Or I could have followed my inital reaction upon reading his email [which told him the "Oneness With God" vision was merely a fantasy] and rejected what he said.

I could have decided that Nishijima was obviously less enlightened that I clearly now was. It would've been no trouble to find another teacher who'd have confirmed my experience.

Or I could have just dipensed with teachers altogether and just decided to start building up my own cult of personal-hero-worshippers, all striving to have the same supercool [or supersensuous??? lol] experience I had.

But I really couldn't do any of those things because I knew better and I had to be honest with myself about it.

It's a frightening thing to be truly honest with yourself.

It means you have no one left to turn to anymore, no one to blame, and no one to look to for salvation. You have to give up any possibility that there will ever be any refuge for you.

You have to accept the reality that you are truly and finally on your own.

The best thing you can hope for in life is to meet a teacher who will smash all of your dreams, dash all your hopes, tear your teddy-bear beliefs out of your arms and fling them over a cliff.

:wink: :D

[paulkershaw]

(quoting from a book...)

You have to accept the reality that you are truly and finally on your own.

The best thing you can hope for in life is to meet a teacher who will smash all of your dreams, dash all your hopes, tear your teddy-bear beliefs out of your arms and fling them over a cliff.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
An awesome idea! But I’m still scared of my teacher when I was in primary school who acted like that. The only trouble with this kind of philospohy is that YOU WONT MAKE MONEY out of it. Shout at someone and they leave because you were being so really ugly ugly to them - as soon as you pull someone out of their comfort zones they just don't come back. Then it’s Bye Bye pal - Gone, Ditched, Outta here - saying "this is not for me" kinda thingy. Maybe that's why it’s written in a book and not spoken in some form of seminar or spiritual class which would be seriously empty if it were spoken as such. Far better to create a system of subtle fear that will keep you under control and make you feel suicidally guilty if you look at someone’s nice a** in a cool pair of Levi Jeans ... Imagine that?

Do you all agree that we all have a deep need to belong to something or someone, to a cause or a belief system, (or we wouldn’t be un-happy would we?) There would be no search within or without if we’d all found what we’re needing to connect with would there? We have a need to be understood as a person, an individual, as Me and accepted as such and we’re willing to change in order to be accepted. Or are we?

We can get into real deep discussion as to why we have the deep inner need within – could be another subject and link altogether on this forum?

I listened to a Live channeled Spiritual Teaching last weekend that said there is only one pathway to God and that pathway is through the heart and the heart only - and there is not ever one single following or religion or person who can claim that their path is the only way. I knew that, did not I? did not I? Hmmmm. So my answer at this time is to learn to live in my own heart and be happy there-in and then God can be anything after that, it won’t matter anymore and I will see God in everything and all things, because my heart is resonating to that energy. What a trip of a lifetime ... but hey I am just being happy.

So then I fall back on my Question of all Questions which keeps me in balance and harmony and I ask myself "Am I happy?" and then I can answer myself as to the percentage I gauge myself to be happy in my life. I reckon we’ll only look for happiness when we're not happy and if some kind or organization or spiritual institution then pops up and suggests that it will work for us we’ll jump in head first sometimes only to find out that we're still not happy and the people or rules within that organization still aren't making me happy – so we leave (hopefully before its too late ... ).

At least we've learnt some kind of spiritual method to keep our happiness brimming over, ever if we've learnt that we have to question our own motives and processes during it, but we have learnt a master and major lesson. And that perfect wondrous lesson is Yes, we’re truly on our own and can only rely on ourselves - so the quote "You have to accept the reality that you are truly and finally on your own" really is true ... but do we truly live in that understanding all the time?? - it takes a lot of energy to maintain the responsibility of looking after the self. There are many deep underlying and subtle issues surrounding this process ...

In the meantime, bearing in mind that I cannot change someone else's processes, thoughts or feelings I will continue showing that there is always another way and that no-one has to subscribe to a particular following unless they choose to do so ... I wish I knew that years ago – but then I wouldn’t be where I was now if I didn’t go through that particular process would I?

Just sharing! I hope I got the essence of what I am trying to say through OK? Or did I lose the point of this thread? Hope not - but having great fun writing to you all who read this.

Blessings of Light to all.

[proy]

It's a frightening thing to be truly honest with yourself. It means you have no one left to turn to anymore, no one to blame, and no one to look to for salvation. You have to give up any possibility that there will ever be any refuge for you. You have to accept the reality that you are truly and finally on your own. The best thing you can hope for in life is to meet a teacher who will smash all of your dreams, dash all your hopes, tear your teddy-bear beliefs out of your arms and fling them over a cliff.

Thanks for this zhuk. It is exactly what I have come to believe, after following many "spiritual paths" and being disillusioned by them all, one after another. That disillusionment is my best friend and teacher. It is a hard pill to swallow - that there really is nothing to believe in, so I seldom talk about it. I find it gives me a feeling of great freedom now, after much heartache, but I hesitate to pass on my feelings and insights in this area to others. They usually find it depressing.

The Dream is Over.

I am reminded of the John Lennon song - called "God"

• God is a Concept by which
  we measure our pain
  I'll say it again
  God is a Concept by which
  we measure our pain
  I don't believe in magic
  I don't believe in I-ching
  I don't believe in Bible
  I don't believe in Tarot
  I don't believe in Hitler
  I don't believe in Jesus
  I don't believe in Kennedy
  I don't believe in Buddha
  I don't believe in Mantra
  I don't believe in Gita
  I don't believe in Yoga
  I don't believe in Kings
  I don't believe in Elvis
  I don't believe in Zimmerman
  I don't believe in Beatles
  I just believe in me ... and that's reality
  
  The dream is over
  What can I say?
  The Dream is Over
  Yesterday
  I was the Dreamweaver
  But now I am reborn
  I was the Walrus
  But now I am John
  and so dear friends
  You'll just have to carry on
  The Dream is over

[mr green]

Hey ... he believes in Yoko too. cannot fool the saxophone man :lol:.

[alladin]

Disillusion and depression are sisters. Any tip for becoming disillusioned in a healthy way, or some reasoning to make the pill less bitter?

I came across a short article+photo of the Beatles with Maharishi Rishi, saying that at some stage. In fact, when the Rishi got into Cadillacs and money making, the group got disillusioned and took distance from him. This explains the lyrics you posted! Sounds a bit like us!

[proy]

Hey ... he believes in Yoko too. cannot fool the saxophone man :lol:.

Yeah, I thought there was something missing from the lyrics. Yoko & Me, That's reality. Thanks.

Any tip for becoming disillusioned in a healthy way, or some reasoning to make the pill less bitter?

I can only say my own experience. First stage is, I get rebellious and try to change it from within. Then I get angry and snipe at it from the outside. Then I realise it was all a very positive learning experience. "What does not kill us makes us stronger," I believe that was Nietsche, who is great to read if you like an iconoclastic rant, by the way.

Right now I do not regret any of the paths I tried. I think it is the regret that causes the depression. I learnt to rely on my own inner guidance and self esteem. From all the paths I tried I gained, I never lost. It is maybe thinking, "Oh, I wasted those years," that can be depressing, but nothing is ever wasted if we learn from it and move on.

Ultimately though, I feel it is not reasoning that saves us from depression. It is the feeling that our lives have meaning now. So for us in particular it is feeling that our lives have meaning outside the BK system, or any system. To stand alone is a great place from which to co-operate with like minded people. For me, this forum is a great place for me to feel I am making a difference for the better.

[driedexbk]

Right now I do not regret any of the paths I tried. I think it is the regret that causes the depression. I learnt to rely on my own inner guidance and self esteem. From all the paths I tried I gained, I never lost. It is maybe thinking, "Oh, I wasted those years," that can be depressing, but nothing is ever wasted if we learn from it and move on.

I don't know, Proy ... like you, I do not regret any of the paths I have tried nor have left for good. However, I feel a bit depressed and I wonder why?

I do not think the seven years I spent with the BK were wasted. My life has a different meaning but I am still in sorrow for leaving the spiritual family behind. I wish everything would go back to the way it was at the beginning. Why do good things have to end? What do you or the others think about this? There is another thing that preoccupies me: the crazy feeling of wanting to go back to see the people I loved and still love. I wonder how many in this forum have the same urge to return just because of love. This spiritual intoxication is indeed a sickness of the mind.

[joel]

I wish everything would go back to the way it was at the beginning. Why do good things have to end? What do you or the others think about this? There is another thing that preoccupies me: the crazy feeling of wanting to go back to see the people I loved and still love. I wonder how many in this forum have the same urge to return just because of love. This spiritual intoxication is indeed a sickness of the mind.

The feeling of being in love also changes with time. There is something magical at the beginning. Everything is fresh and new. To go back to the beginning ... we are also drawn to an idealized state of dependence.

I was disillusioned when I left to find that most of the people I thought were my friends in the BK family did not care enough to keep in touch. OTOH, several have remained friends, and I have made several friends here. Just to have a couple of people we can be completely open and unprotected with may be enough.

[proy]

I wonder how many in this forum have the same urge to return just because of love.

I don't have that urge myself, but then I am lucky enough to know some ex-BKs well, and I know that makes a big difference because there is a lot of love between us. I think your depression is perfectly natural under the circumstances.

It is grief really. I do not think you can reason your way out of it. In part this is what this forum is for, to support those who have left the BKs and feel bereft. Just keep talking to us, and be prepared for it to take some time. The longer you were in the longer it will take to adjust to being out, in my experience. Also it depends on how much of yourself you gave when you were in.

If your experience was similar to mine and others I have spoken to, you gave it your whole heart and soul. So it is like losing a family member or getting divorced. Some people do seem to just get over it in no time at all. I do not know how they do it. Unfortunately they do not seem to know themselves, they just say,"Get over it." Either they are very tough characters or they never felt the full intoxication when they were in. My guess would be it is the latter.

[jannisder]

'LOVE ...' video

[alladin]

Yes Proy, and friends, its the feeling we are now progressing and they were all lessons to make us stronger and freer.

I have good wishes for those who feel depressed thinking they wasted time and it's true that the disappointment is proportioned to the level of sincere commitment one had, regardless the lenght of the time you stayed with the BK. It should be possible, somehow to contact old friends, when we feel it's right, why not? Even if we consider them as "under the spell" to a certain extent and they, in turn, think we have lost our fortune. We can help them with lightness, with our new acquired maturity, that enables us not to adopt a "trying to convince you" mode. Just be there for each other :D. Don't foget, even subtly!

An image came to my mind yesterday, about the Zen story of utilizing the raft for crossing the river only, and how unwise it would be dragging it along on land. So, maybe Raja Yoga, the way we experienced, was just a valuable raft to get us on to the other shore, and carry on with the journey. Why having regrets, then? Everything has a purpose and is a teacher, as Baba said.

The first thing that struck me, and attracted me about Raja Yoga, was that this path was meant to help us stand on our own feet with nobody in between us and God. So, it feels right, to prune out the useless paraphernalia the Yagya gradually pulled in the picture. Doesn't mean being disobedient or turn the back to Baba. To me, just being more focussed and essenceful.

[proy]

This is an interesting article about the links between cult intoxication and other types of intoxication; MEMES.

[zhuk]

Memes (we finally get back to them!), which manifest as cults and related social movements, have "discovered" the brain's reward system as well. Successful cult memes induce intense social interaction behaviour between cult members. This trips the attention detectors. Tripping the detectors causes the release of reward chemicals without having any more connection to "real world" improvements in reproductive success than abusing addictive drugs. Anyone who has ever had the feeling of being higher than a kite after giving a public speech is well aware of the effects of attention.

Examples of cults using focused attention include "love bombing" in Rev. Moon's Unification Church and "training routines" and "auditing" in Scientology. *(Scientology’s training routine 0 (TR-0) has people staring at a partner, in some cases without blinking, for extended times.) An explanation consistent with evolutionary psychology for the propagation of the hard-to-explain memes at the top of this article is that successful memes of this class induce focused attention between those infected with the memes.

(*my bold italics. Hmm. "Drishti", anyone??lol)

That attention in turn results in the release of pleasure inducing chemicals into the reward system of the brain. This release of chemicals results in the reinforcement of behaviours that led to the attention--identical to the process we see in addicts. Thus, it should come as no surprise that the behaviour of people under the influence of cults is similar to that we observe in addicts. *Typical behaviour for both includes draining bank accounts and education funds, selling or mortgaging property, neglecting children, destroying relations with family and friends and losing interest in anything except the drug or cult. (Not all people become this irresponsible on either cults or drugs, but many do.)

(*as we have seen demonstrated by posters on the Newcomers etc forums)

Becoming dependent on drugs or cults is a feedback process on the brain reward system as well. Once a person is using drugs or alcohol to "excess" their non-involved friends withdraw attention-rewarding contact because “who wants to deal with a strung out junky or a drunk?” The same loss of attention rewards happens when friends withdraw from a person who tries to recruit them into his new cult.

The result is to make the drug or cult a major if not exclusive source of brain rewards.

Thanks for the link, proy :) Fascinating ...

[paulkershaw]

Unless we stand for something, we will fall for anything.

This comment brings to mind that perhaps I joined the BK system, because I did not stand for anything strongly enough in those days and thus susceptible too much. Wonder what we ex-BKs stand for nowadays ...(?)

[alladin]

Can only speak for myself:

Seeking for truth and trying to get to know the self, God and Drama better, self transformation, curiosity, breaking down dogmas ... as long as it is a dynamic process, guess we'll all be OK.