University Status

[arjun]

(I would appreciate the specific Murli quote on that, I remember it but not where).

I am quoting two Murli points from a PBK literature. These quotes are from Revised Sakar Murlis published by the BKs and translated by PBKs.
• “God Father is called spiritual, knowledgeful. So you will write the name Spiritual University. Nobody will raise an objection. Then, you will remove those words (Prajapita Brahmakumari) and write this name ‘Spiritual University’. Try and see, write ‘God Fatherly University.’ This is their aim object. Then day by day, there will be changes in your museum , pictures etc. also. Then it will have to be written at all the centres-Spiritual God Fatherly University.”-Revised Sakar Murli dated 20.3.74 and 19.2.2000
• “Many institutions have been named Universities. Actually, that is not a world university. Universe means the entire world. The unlimited Father opens only one college in the entire world. You know, that everyone in the world is going to become pure. There is only one University, which Father establishes. We take the entire world to the abode of peace and the abode of prosperity. That is why this is called Godly University. God comes and gives the inheritance of salvation (mukti) and true salvation (jeevanmukti, i.e. living a life free from vices and full of virtues) to the whole world. It is actually a matter of Father, but everyone keeps saying University. Changing this universe, i.e the entire world is the task of Father only.” – Revised Sakar Murli dated 25.8.84

[fluffy bunny]

Its true that was often quoted, e.g. Sakar Murli 2003/03/05. Arjun got the specific quote I was thinking of. Another one was;

In fact, this is the true university. A Government University cannot be called a university. The whole world is called the universe. There is no knowledge for the world in them. All of them are limited. They have created so many limits. In Hindi, a university is called Vishwa Vidhyalaya. Anyone in the whole world can come and study. It is not like that in those universities

[alladin]

Dear ex-l, your interesting previous post about the UK Department of Education opened my eyes once again to one of the thousands of aspects that in the BKWSO are not clear and on which we faithful, unquestioning, well-trained BKs and ex-s have turned a blind eye.

We dismissed them as "unimportant", being busy in our "spiritual efforts", service and respecting the rules (including the one that if you want to belong to the "Family", you should go along with everything and never rock the boat otherwise you get thrown out as it always happen with free thinkers naming them "trouble makers" and making them feel unwelcome). The door is open, just go if you don't like it. Sometimes this forum also feels like that, but never mind and no surprise. We all carry some "BK-style" within us.

Unfortunately, this "Family", is very much based on hierarchy and conditional love. The more you keep your mouth shut and hide your ideas and activities (see what someone was saying about not letting anyone know you practise sports!), the better chance you have to survive and be accepted and climb the Ladder, if interested. I was not interested in "surviving" under the condition of being gagged.

There's a poll about how approachable SS are. Well, if you want to fix an appointment for volunteering "Dadi when this soul wants to be sent anywhere on service, wants to make a donation" or to be re-programmed when your faith is shaking and you are awakening from the zombie stage; they will be more than happy to meet you.

If someone is inquisitive, determined and assertive and has a keen interest on knowing the truth, or wants to point out inconsistencies, he will be shamed and reproached and maybe will never manage to meet a senior, because they do have filters like executives have (... their assistants). In fact, most BKs are trained from the start -prevention is better than cure :-? - through psychological beatings. So the majority of them will not even come close to the stage of attempting to question a SS directly.

Out of diplomacy, love, respect or fear, I might refrain from asking my parents any "Why". In fact, it is not good manners to question or criticize a parent. But it could actually happen that out of innocence, if just given the chance, one bluntly asks "mummy, why did you tell that person that you are a teacher, when I know you are a road sweeper?". Why do you call this organization a "university" when in the lokik world the word means something totally different? Why do you say it is "universal and free of charge", but increasingly there are fees for courses, pressure on people to make donations, and literature and cds are not being sold anymore at cost price?

Why, when Brahma Baba requested and in the Murlis it is written that we should not worship human souls and keep their pictures, are all centers are cluttered with them? (In fact if you do not fill your tables, shelves and walls with them, you are not pukka but an untrustworthy revolutionary).

We could formulate millions of embarassing questions which arise because we've realized we've been lied to, or given half-truths, or because of some nonsense or inconsistency we spotted out. If calling these "lies", and those who tell them "liars" is not politically correct on the Forum at the moment, I can take it back temporarily, and replace these accusations with some euphemism.

Let me guess, maybe the trendy theme now is the "Olympics". I will make, without asking permission, a non-insulting analogy with the relay race. Previously on this Forum posters, maybe you, suggested that those which you call "Old ladies", might have elbowed their way up in the hierarchy of the Yagya rather than having properly being chosen and appointed by the Founder. If this is true, they snatched the baton away, therefore improvised the race and see the result!!

In any case, when the athlete loses the baton, doesn't respect lanes or zones, hampers other runners, the team is disqualified.

[fluffy bunny]

You miss understood my suggestion entirely.

This website has already suffered one legal attack by the BKWSU. Whilst taking the hospitality of it, what did you do to help?

The BKWSU currently has appointed a second lawyer, and have been reported to follow him. We are seeing their nature at play. Can you substantiate your accusations specifically?

Unless criticisms can be sufficiently evidenced down to specific individuals and events, they could quite easily be construed as a simple defamation or even libel given the nature of a comment published on a website rather than quietly spoken gossip amongst friends.

What would you do if another legal attack on free speech and such criticism occurred? Probably nothing. And yet you accept hospitality both ways.

So all I am saying is that unless one can or is willing to substantiate one's accusations "beyond reasonable doubt", one should not publish them on a website. What would one say of a guest that takes goodwill and then returns contempt?

[alladin]

I don't know if we can continue such discussion on this topic here. What topic are we discussing? Can this be an occasion to inform us all about the code of conduct posters should keep especially in the new emergency time of the Forum being once again attacked legally?

We are not all informed about what's going on and how delicate the situation is. If ex-l wants to provide some guidelines, welcome , but he should not take for granted that we all know exactly the consequences of a statement or a word we use. Possibly I am not the only simpleton, here, nor the one who writes stuff improbable or "over the top"

So, is it a big deal if for instance I call liars spiritual leaders and mediums who advised me to go in bracing position because the end of the world was due in such and such a date and it hasn't occurred yet? Of course there's a certain degree of madness both in cult leaders and in followers!

Whilst taking the hospitality of it, what did you do to help?

Good wishes and constantly and sincerely sharing my experiences during my association with the BKWSO and the consequences it possibly had on my life and psyche.

Financial help? Forget it. Like most BKs, I was suggested to neglect my lokik studies and career, because Destruction is coming and Baba's service is more important to gain our fortune in Paradise. Sorry, I have no written proof that SS instructed me not to be " materialistic". Can I say that my situation would be totally different if I had followed Brian's Beacon and similar successful BKs, famous for making money out of revisited Raja Yoga knowledge, or I do I aggravate the situation for the forum, or yours ex-l, or can we get sued for anything we say now?

Censorship can kill the Forum even before a court sentence against us is issued. Let's try and avoid that! Or do we have to migrate to safer places to protect our freedom of speech?

The BKWSU currently has appointed a second lawyer, and have been reported to follow him. We are seeing their nature at play. Can you substantiate your accusations specifically?

Always. You asked me to be concise. We don't all have such quality. We don't need and cannot get into details and relate all our stories here. I would if I was asked by a judge. In many cases, all we could speak about is hypnotism, brainwashing, manipulation, exploitation and plagiarism (undue influence, much spoken about on the Forum). Hard to define, but true, especially if many people have been affected similarly.

Unless criticisms can be sufficiently evidenced down to specific individuals and events, they could quite easily be construed as a simple defamation or even libel given the nature of a comment published on a website rather than quietly spoken gossip amongst friends.

Excuse my ignorance. If some divers or surfers start commenting on a surfers' forum, that waves or accommodation are not good in a particular place or a surfing/diving school is not reliable, that the sea or the beach was dirty and possibly polluted, can that Forum be silenced by schools or tour operators and hotels? Can we say that an airline provides poor service and that since you paid a high price , you are dissatisfied you feel you've been "robbed"??

What would you do if another legal attack on free speech and such criticism occurred? Probably nothing. And yet you accept hospitality both ways.

Sorry, your obsession on "providing evidence " has a boomerang effect. You are defaming me as if I was a parasite on the Forum that so far has contributed in no way and possibly has no guts and is better off gossiping in a corridor.

We all give and those who left the Forum gave what we can; time, thoughts and energy, stories, even if we may disagree with each other. What pleasure do you feel in assuming that, "I would do nothing?" When and if, ask, and we will see. In the meantime, let's think positively and cooperatively!

So all I am saying is that unless one can or is willing to substantiate one's accusations "beyond reasonable doubt", one should not publish them on a website.

Again, I do not understand what you mean by "publishing". is not a discussion Forum in its nature different from an article? I'd love to get the opinion of an expert in media related legal matters here and even then every country is different. So to which law do we have to obey? UK? Is it where the Forum is registered? USA? Is it where the legal case was made?

Can the law expect the Forum administration to gag anonymous posters that come and go? In a newspaper, an article is different from a reader's letter. A journalist is different from an occasional writer. Does the publisher incur the same risks by allowing uncensored opinions to be printed? On the TV anchormen can easily get in trouble for what they say and how they conduct a program, but according to this analogy, aren't we forum members more similar to people from the audience who, in turn, have the floor? In an interactive space can that ever be controlled?

Please clarify, are we all in China?

[fluffy bunny]

Why do you think newspapers ask for the name and address of letter writers before they publish their letters?

So, is it a big deal if for instance I call liars spiritual leaders and mediums who advised me to go in bracing position because the end of the world was due in such and such a date and it hasn't occurred yet?

Yes, it is a big deal because it was not a "lie". It was a misinterpretation. It was a question of faith. Caveat emptor ... it was your fault for believing them.

On one hand, you could not prove in a court of law that the "BKWSU is a cult" because there is no agreement about what a cult is and not experts agree. Many highly qualified experts would specifically disagree and defend their rights. Indeed, the argument would go against you. On the other, calling a minority religion a cult in order to damage them, as you do, is increasing considered religious hate crime. Either way, if they pushed the issue, you would have to prove it in a court of law. Are you willing and able to do so? As an "religious apostate" your position would be very weak.

That is why, personally, I do not agree that "they" are a cult, but I do agree that certain aspects of the religion are 'cultic' (whilst certain aspects are not). There is quite a difference. One is simple, broad-brushed defamation, the other is informed critique which I could substantiate on the basis of expert opinion. You can question if their patterns fit within general agreed limits of cultic behaviour, but you have to be very specific or cautious in making up any conclusion and be able to support it.

Ditto my critique that the leadership have "knowing misled their followers over their early history". Does that mean that the leadership "lied"? Perhaps, perhaps not. Some did, not all. They probably led themselves to believe what they were saying was true and the best thing to do, so its a question of faith, but I think the chances of them pursuing that aspect in court are nil. It would be suicidal for their credibility.

Has the Brahma Kumaris' appropriation o ... to decide.

What is the situation in your own country and what have you done to correct it if it is wrong?