Significance of the year 1976 and the declaration of 1966

[abrahma kumar]

God Father says – Even if someone hears a word from Me directly face to face; if they hear even a word, even a sentence, then it would not go waste; He/she would come to heaven and if he/she makes efforts, if he/she imbibes regularity, then he/she can achieve a high post. The posts have also been mentioned. The highest post is one. Which post? It is the post of becoming the Master of the world. That has become a matter of ‘too late’. That declaration has already been made. When was it made? The declaration has been made in the Murli itself. When did these Lakshmi and Narayan take birth? Ten years less than five thousand years ago. It is a Vani dated 1966. So that comes to 1976. Lakshmi and Narayan were born in 1976.

Hi Arjun, a question. Are all these words directly quoted from your organisation's Vani? If so, what strikes me in this section, as a difference from the BKWSU Murli, is that in the BKWSU Murli there is never any statement to the effect that "Ten years less than five thousand years ago ...". Within the BKWSU everything with reference to 'time', whether remaining or to come, is a period of 5000 years. The only 'count' that moves relates to the number of years being celebrated since the Yagya's inception or Shiva Jayanti etc etc i.e. the 65th, 66th, 67th Shiv Jayanti.

If some of the words are not a direct quote, but your own churning, then there appears to be a difference in The Cycle as understood by yourself according to your organisation's teachings, and The Cycle as understood by myself according to the BKWSU.

The BKWSU Murli always says that such and such a thing happened exactly the same 5000 years ago and will happen exactly the same 5000 years forward. So that even if one were to hear that same Murli again 7 years later, it would still say that such and such a thing happened 5000 years ago and not 4993 years ago. It is as if time stopped for the BKWSU after a certain point ...

If you get my meaning, can you explain your organisation's understanding of The Cycle? The BKWSU 5000 years seems 'set' irrrespective of elapsed time. Are you aware of the 'fixed' 5000 year timeframe in BKWSU?

Thinking about it now, the BKWSU's method seems a very simplistic, dare i say, ignorant way of reckoning time/understanding what God Shiva may have taught about The Cycle.

Any thoughts? Boy, oh boy. How come we never ask any of these questions in Murli class?

I wonder how much of what has been passed down in the BKWSU has been heavily coloured by the relative intelligence/level of education of whoever is/was translating or formulating teaching policy at the time?

Om Shanti Bhai

[arjun]

Are all these words directly quoted from your organisation's Vani? If so what strikes me in this section as a difference from the BKWSU Murli is that in the BKWSU Murli there is never any statement to the effect that Ten years less than five thousand years ago ... Within BKWSU everything with reference to 'time' whether remaining or to come is a period of 5000 years. The only 'count' that moves relates to the number of years being celebrated since the Yagya's inception or Shiva Jayanti etc etc i.e. the 65th, 66th, 67th Shiv Jayanti.

Yes, the words are directly quoted from the English draft of 'clarification Murlis' released by AIVV to the PBKs. While the Hindi version of the above clarification Murlis released by the AIVV to PBKs is the final version, but the English version is not the final version. It may undergo some minor changes/correction before being released in English voice as VCDs which contain Murli in the form of alternating lines in Hindi (Baba's voice) and in English (in some sister's voice). There are some such bilingual vcds already available but might not have been uploaded on the pbk vcds website.

The line that Baba has quoted is definitely from a Sakar Murli that was narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba in 1966, but I am not sure if that Murli (dated 11.10.66) is the same that is being clarified in the VCD no.262. I will try to get the exact quotation as soon as possible.

Actually the words "When did these Lakshmi and Narayan take birth? Ten years less than five thousand years ago." were spoken in a Murli dated 1966 and pointed towards the year 1976, which was also declared by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba as the year of revelation (that was also misunderstood as the year of Destruction of the world). Brahma Baba did not know in 1966 that how the Lakshmi Narayan would take birth ten years later. But the soul which was to get revealed as the Confluence-Aged Lakshmi had (probably) already entered the Yagya and the soul which was to get revealed as the Confluence-Aged Narayan was to enter the Yagya a few months after the demise of Brahma Baba.

These two souls were in the Yagya in the beginning (i.e. 1936 onwards for a few years) and then took rebirth and entered the Yagya again. They met each other at the Paladi center of BKs at Ahmedabad. This center was special in the sense that it was the first center that was opened with the money of the Yagya and not with the money of the local BKs. Moreover Ahmedabad has been termed by Avyakt BapDada as the seed-form of all the BK centers. Why did he say so? It is because the souls that are to play the roles of Confluence-Aged Lakshmi and Narayan met each other and exchanged basic and advance knowledge. Confluence-Aged Lakshmi became instrument in giving the basic BK knowledge to the Confluence-Aged Narayan whereas the Confluence-Aged Narayan became instrument in giving the advance knowledge to the Confluence-Aged Lakshmi.

So the declaration about the birth of Lakshmi and Narayan in the Sakar Murli dated 1966 is very much related to the declaration of 1976 as the year of revelation.

But the same Murli point which was used by the PBKs to prove the above incident of the Yagya has been used by the Vishnu Party to prove that Shri Dashrath Patel is the Supreme Soul because he took lokik birth in 1956. While the year 1976 was so significant in the Yagya history both from the BK and PBK point of view, as far as my knowledge goes, 1956 does not bear any significance in the Yagya history apart from the lokik birth of Shri Dashrath Patel. I think Sister Sakshidelhi may not agree with me, but she can present her point of view also.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Note: The PBKs believe that Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is playing/going to get revealed as the Confluence-Aged Narayan/Ram/Shankar. The PBKs also believe that the head of the rosary of victory who is presently a Brahmakumari (head of the African centers) is playing/going to get revealed as the Confluence-Aged Lakshmi/Sita/Parvati.

[abrahma kumar]

Thank you Arjun Bhai for your enlightened response. Seems to me as there is much in all these organisations that ought to be common knowledge to all Godly students. BTW I was interacting with Sister Sakshidelhi on one of the discussions elsewhere on the forum so I will see how that goes.

Arjun If I may make one other observation even if a misguided one: It really seems as if these Shiva Baba influenced organisations ought to get together to resolve whatever differences there are so that there can be greater clarity of teachings and divinity of purpose. While the BKWSU seems to have managed to establish the largest or most publicised 'footprint' on the world-stage the PBK's and Visnu Party lay claim to greater authenticity. As a bystander one cannot help but feel somewhere in the mix the 'truth' may be there somewhere. Thank you Bhai. In Baba's Yaad and pyar

[arjun]

These two souls were in the Yagya in the beginning (i.e. 1936 onwards for a few years) and then took rebirth and entered the Yagya again. They met each other at the Paladi center of BKs at Ahmedabad. This center was special in the sense that it was the first center that was opened with the money of the Yagya and not with the money of the local BKs.

Proof for the above statement from an Avyakt Vani dated 12.12.83:

"Naye bhi baithey hai aur Maharathi bhi baithey hain. Dono saamney hain. Sabsey zyada sameep Gujarat hai na. Sameep kay saath sahyogi bhi Gujarat vaaley hain. Sahyog may Gujarat ka number Rajasthan say aagey hai. Abu Rajasthan hai? Vaisey Rajasthan nazdeek hai na. Rajasthan kay raajey bhi jaagein toh kamaal karengey. Abhi gupt hain. Fir pratyaksh ho jayega. Gujarat ka janma kaisey hua, pataa hai? Gujarat ko pehley sahyog diya gaya. Sahyog kay jal say beej padaa hua hai. Toh fal bhi sahyog ka hee niklega na. Gujarat ko direct BapDada kay sankalp kay sahyog ka paani milaa hai. Isliye fal bhi sahyog ka hee nikaltaa hai. Samjha! Gujarat vaaley kitney bhaagyavaan ho! Gujarat may BapDada nay center khola hai. Gujarat nay nahee khola hai. Isliye na chaahtey huay bhi sahaj hee sahyog ka fal nikaltaa hee rahega. Aapko mehnat nahee karnee padegi. Kisi bhi kaarya may aapko mehnat nahee karnee padegi. Dharani sahyog kay fal kee hai." (page 44 & 45 of the Hindi version of the compilation of Avyakt Vanis, 1983-84)

"The new ones as well as the Maharathis are sitting here. Both are in front. Gujarat is the nearest amongst all is not it? Along with that, being near it is co-operative as well. In cooperation Gujarat is ahead of Rajasthan. (Nirwair Bhai said Abu is in Rajasthan therefore Gujarat is helping Rajasthan). Does Abu belong to Rajasthan only? (No). Abu belongs to the whole world. One day the kings of Rajasthan will be awakened, they will come into the open. Gujarat is sitting in front so therefore it is praise of Gujarat. But do you know how Gujarat was born? Gujarat was given help. The seed has been watered with the help of co-operation, then what will the fruit be like? Won't it also be first in the fruit of co-operation. It was watered by the direct help of BapDada's thoughts. (BapDada had a thought to start service in Ahmedabad and sent Janki Dadi and Sarla bahen directly). Do you know just how lucky Gujarat is? It was BapDada's inspiration that led to the opening of a center. The founder is here (Sarla bahen). It was not opened by a Gujarat resident. This is why Gujarat will always achieve the fruit because the seed has been sown directly by BapDada Himself, therefore no efforts necessary. You can go ahead with an open heart. The land is very very fertile it will give maximum fruit."
It may kindly be noted that both the Hindi and English versions of the above Avyakt Vani are the official BK versions. The English version of the same has been quoted from a compilation of Avyakt Vanis from 1983-84 season titled "Avyakt BapDada - 1983-84". The second page of the book says "Translated and adapted for print by students of London Center" (page 24 & 25 of the English version of the compilation of Avyakt Vanis, 1983-84)

The above quotation can be taken as a classic example of the changes/manipulations that the BKs make while translating the Avyakt Vanis from Hindi to English. This aspect of the above quotation would be dealt with in a separate thread in the commonroom. So please do not comment on this aspect here. This quotation has been produced only to prove that the Ahmedabad center of the BKs was opened by BapDada and not Gujarat (i.e. residents of Gujarat, the state where Ahmedabad is located).

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[arjun]

If I may make one other observation even if a misguided one: It really seems as if these Shiva Baba influenced organisations ought to get together to resolve whatever differences there are so that there can be greater clarity of teachings and divinity of purpose. While the BKWSU seems to have managed to establish the largest or most publicised 'footprint' on the world-stage the PBK's and Visnu Party lay claim to greater authenticity. As a bystander one cannot help but feel somewhere in the mix the 'truth' may be there somewhere.

We PBKs are ready for that, but when the BKs are not at all ready to recognize the existence of PBKs/AIVV and not ready to share the original Sakar Murlis (both printed and audio material), photographs and documentary proofs of the history of Yagya, then what can we do?

We are presenting our version of the history of Yagya as narrated to us by ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) along with the necessary proofs as available in the original/revised Sakar Murlis/Avyakt Vanis/BK literature/photographs/pictures etc. It is upto the individual members to decide on the basis of these discussions and proofs.

However, your vigilant approach is highly appreciated. Had you not raised the above query, this aspect of manipulation in the English versions of Avyakt Vanis would have remained hidden for some/much more time. It is a coincidence that the only book of Avyakt Vanis available with me in English (published by BKs) pertains to the year 1983-84. So, I was able to quote the official versions of BKs both in Hindi and English.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[abrahma kumar]

Wouldn't want the thread to take the appearance of a one-on-one backslapping private party betwixt us so I must confess that was a little surprised that my question on one of your PBK threads had spawned it's own topic - however I accept the drama. One of the things I was hoping to get your feedback on was the Cycle whether and however it may happen to be part of your organisations teachings.

Do PBK's also to subscribe to the 5000 year cycle duration? And if so are you counting down against that 5000 year timeframe? I won't keep going on about this if it is a bit of an obscure point but I was trying to pick up on from the original post that spawned this thread was whether your organisation had a clear idea of how many years were remaining till the 'end' of this Kalpa?

At the risk of repeating myself like a pundit, in the BKWSU everything seems to be 5000 years away or 5000 years ago ... Does your organisation have a different take on the passage of time since Shiv Baba 'came'? IBY

(Maybe you have answered and i am a bit to dim to see it ;) )

[arjun]

Do PBK's also to subscribe to the 5000 year cycle duration? And if so are you counting down against that 5000 year timeframe?

Yes, we also subscribe to the 5000 year cycle duration. We believe that the new cycle (i.e. the Golden Age) should start around 2036.

At the risk of repeating myself like a pundit, in the BKWSU everything seems to be 5000 years away or 5000 years ago ... Does your organisation have a different take on the passage of time since Shiv Baba 'came'?

We also say that incorporeal Father Shiv had come 5000 years ago and has come again in this Kalpa. But its advanced explanation is given in the advance knowledge in this way - ShivBaba had come as Father in the beginning of the Yagya and then came again in the Brahmin family as Father in the year of revelation, i.e. 1976.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

[arjun]

Are all these words directly quoted from your organisation's Vani? If so what strikes me in this section as a difference from the BKWSU Murli is that in the BKWSU Murli there is never any statement to the effect that Ten years less than five thousand years ago

Here is the relevant Murli quote:

"In Lakshmi Narayan ka janma kab hua. Aaj say das varsh kam paanch hazaar varsh hua. Fir kal kahengey nau varsh kam paanch hazaar varsh." - Murli dinaank 6.3.75, page 3

"When were these Lakshmi and Narayan born? Ten years less than five thousand years from today. Then tomorrow it would be said nine years less than five thousand years." - Revised Sakar Murli dated 6.3.75 published by BKs and narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba

The above Murli quote has been provided to me by the nimit sisters but I forgot to ask them if they have the original version of the above Murli which was narrated in 1966. I would get the doubt clarified as soon as possible.

Moreover Ahmedabad has been termed by Avyakt BapDada as the seed-form of all the BK centers. Why did he say so? It is because the souls that are to play the roles of Confluence-Aged Lakshmi and Narayan met each other and exchanged basic and Advanced Knowledge. Confluence-Aged Lakshmi became instrument in giving the basic BK knowledge to the Confluence-Aged Narayan whereas the Confluence-Aged Narayan became instrument in giving the Advanced Knowledge to the Confluence-Aged Lakshmi.

"Ahmedabad ko sabhi say zyada service karnee hai, kyonki Ahmedabad sabhi centers ka beejroop hai. Beej may zyada shakti hoti hai. Khoob lalkaar karo. Jo gahree neend may soye huay bhi jaag uthein." - Avyakt Vani dinank 24.1.70

"Ahmedabad must do more service than everyone else because Ahmedabad is the seed form of all the centers. Seed contains more power. Challenge vigorously so that those in deep slumber also wake up." - Avyakt Vani dated 24.1.70 published by the BKs and narrated through BK Gulzar Dadi

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Note: The English translation of the above quotations has been done by a PBK.

[new world]

PBKs picturise the story that Bharat (Virendra Dev Dixit - Virendra Dev Dixit) became free from corruption & vices in 1976 & 100 years (in this mortal world - Mrityulok) of main Brahma (Bharat - Virendra Dev Dixit) finished in 1976. Thus he escaped from the bondages of this mortal world & from all problems of this mortal world.

But we see that even after 1976, Bharat (Virendra Dev Dixit according to PBKs) is facing so many ... many problems of this mortal world. Why?

[shivsena]

Dear Shivsena,
This whole subject is fascinating, and i have been speculating, due to previous comments made on this forum, as to whether Mama is the soul behind the Avyakt Vanis... although correct me if I am wrong, as my research is still very much in its infancy... did not Brahama Baba(DL), continue to speak of "World Destruction" in 1976, as he had whilst still in the corporeal body, as if it was a fact, in the Avyakt Vani up to 1976?

Dear roy Bhai.
Very good question about the predictions of 1976.

First we have to ascertain who made the above predictions in Murlis and Vanis, about the destruction in 1976.
....was it made by supreme Father Shiv who narrated the Murlis in code form...the question is why would Father Shiv(truth) tell a subtle lie to his children ????...and if these words were spoken by DL (interfering in Murlis) then the question arises that a soul (DL) who has not understood the Murlis, how could he predict the year of destruction (1976)....so first we ought to know who predicted the destruction of 1976 in Murlis and why???

And the same prediction of year(1976) of destruction was continued in Vanis for many years....so logically speaking the prediction of 1976 should have be made by the same soul who narrated the Murlis.

So who is it ???....according to PBKs, Shiv does not enter Dadi Gulzar and so the prediction could not have been made by Father Shiv.....so it leaves only adi-Brahma(Mama Saraswati) or DL (Brahma) who could have made the prediction....and i feel that DL(child Krishna--baby-buddhi)did not have the capacity to predict this either in Murlis or in Vanis....so that leaves only Mama Saraswati (goddess of knowledge and buddhi-ki-devi) who could have made the prediction to test the children intellectually, to make them numberwise.

So this is a very logical proof(for those who can read between the lines) that no one except Mama Saraswati is the only soul, who could have narrated the Murlis and has been narrating the Vanis for last 40 years.

I am glad you raised the point about the destruction in 1976.
shivsena.

[Sach_Khand]

Here is the relevant Murli quote:

"In Lakshmi Narayan ka janma kab hua. Aaj say das varsh kam paanch hazaar varsh hua. Fir kal kahengey nau varsh kam paanch hazaar varsh." - Murli dinaank 6.3.75, page 3

"When were these Lakshmi and Narayan born? Ten years less than five thousand years from today. Then tomorrow it would be said nine years less than five thousand years. " - Revised Sakar Murli dated 6.3.75 published by BKs and narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba
Note: The English translation of the above quotations has been done by a PBK.

Read the words made large and bold.

Now the question that arises as per the words said there : "tomorrow it would be said nine years less than five thousand years". So then, after 9 days what would be said? Would it be said that, one year less than five thousand years? And what would be said after 10 days? Five thousand years back these Lakshmi and Narayan were born. Is it that way?

Just churn the above questions. If you are literally taking the meaning of the above quoted Murli pooint, then how would you explain the questions raised by me above?

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

[shivsena]

"tomorrow it would be said nine years less than five thousand years". So then, after 9 days what would be said? Would it be said that, one year less than five thousand years? And what would be said after 10 days? Five thousand years back these Lakshmi and Narayan were born. Is it that way?[/color] [/size] [/b]
Sanjeev.

Dear sanjeev Bhai.

Are you trying to say that 1 day(of Sangamyug) = 1 year(of broad drama) ???
Many av. Vanis do say that "Sangamyug ka Ek din Wahan ke Ek saal ke barabar hai."

I do agree that the above point is very confusing and was openly used by dashrath Bhai and Vishnu Party to convince PBKs about the birth of Lakshmi-Narayan in 1956 and not in 1976.

shivsena.

[Sach_Khand]

Are you trying to say that 1 day(of Sangamyug) = 1 year(of broad drama) ???
Many av. Vanis do say that "Sangamyug ka Ek din Wahan ke Ek saal ke barabar hai."

I do agree that the above point is very confusing and was openly used by dashrath Bhai and Vishnu Party to convince PBKs about the birth of Lakshmi-Narayan in 1956 and not in 1976.

shivsena.[/color]

I do not know about what Dashrath Bhai did. But when I was churning the above point it came to my mind that the point was meant to give a clue rather than giving the date of birth of Lakshmi Narayan.

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

[shivsena]

I do not know about what Dashrath Bhai did. But when I was churning the above point it came to my mind that the point was meant to give a clue rather than giving the date of birth of Lakshmi Narayan.
Sanjeev.

I think you may be right...there may be a clue and not just the date...and i remember this point being discussed many times with Vishnu Party...i have no clue as to what is date is refering to, as i do not see any birth of LN in either 1976 or 1956 in sthool or subtle.

[mbbhat]

I do agree that the above point is very confusing and was openly used by dashrath Bhai and Vishnu Party to convince PBKs about the birth of Lakshmi-Narayan in 1956 and not in 1976.

but i do not think Vishnu Party people will succeed in this. Because in that case, it would be eleven years instead of nine years in the second sentence

"tomorrow it would be said nine years less than five thousand years".